Epistemic Angst

Thursday, January 25, 2007

Intro to DH Post I of II

There are two purposes to this series. Firstly, several readers have asked me to do a post which is a general introduction to DH. Secondly, some commenters on this blog, most notably, Hencoop, and Rabbi Maroof, have argued that DH is circular reasoning. In this post, I hope to both give a general background to DH and respond to this circular reasoning argument. I will not actually go through all of the specific arguments that support DH, but will give a general background, stating the sort of arguments out there, without articulating them specifically. The nitty gritty can be found in past and future posts.

The structure of the post will be divided into 4 parts. Parts I and II will appear in this post. Parts III and IV will appear in my next post. Here are the ground rules, in this post, you can only respond to Parts I and II. Any response to III and IV will not be tolerated until I do the next post.
Part I - I will attempt to establish that the Torah is of composite authorship. This does not mean that the DH’s division of sources is accurate, but only that the book did not all come from one hand.
Part II - I will show that the verses described by DH as “D” carry a distinctive color to them. This does not mean they were written by a separate author, but only that they are special. For example, that specialness may be because they have a common theme. Moreover, at this point, it will still be possible to argue that what makes them unique is that they were written by Moshe. But, the point is, they are special.
Part III, I will attempt to show that D is indeed a separate author and the distinction is not merely between God and Moses.
Part IV, I will attempt to show that P is likewise a separate author.

Part I – Multiple authorship of the Torah

There are chiefly three arguments that support this theory.

1. The Torah contradicts itself numerous times. As an example, see this post on Moseirah. There are many more. The contradictions are very numerous. It is not logical one author would contradict himself so many times

2. Duplicates. The Torah repeats many stories more than once. I am not referring to saying the same thing twice, but to submitting two versions of the same story. Why? Those who are skeptic of DH argue that it is not repetition of the same story, but two similar stories. This however can not be for the following three reasons.

a. In some cases, the stories are so similar it is completely impossible for two stories, so similar, to have both happened. See for example, my post on the lineage of Kain.

b. In some cases, it is not possible for two stories that are very similar to happen twice because once it happened once, it could never happen again. As an example, see my post discussing the fact that Avraham was shocked to hear that God predicted the birth of Yitzchak. This could not have happened twice, for the second time, the shock would be uncalled for.

c. In some cases, it is implausible an event took place twice. For example, see my post on creation. It is not possible that God created man twice.

However, these duplicates are easily explained if we assume that the Torah has multiple authors.

3. Many sentences in the Torah are choppy and do not read well. They make abrupt turns that do not make sense. For example, see my post on mechirat Yosef. By dividing the verses into different authors, the choppy turns are better understood.

While each and every example I have cited may not be conclusive in its own right, the important thing to notice is that these issues are ubiquities in the Torah, to an extent that the traditional view can not be accepted. Anyone interested in more examples can peruse my blog. More examples will be forthcoming in the future.

However, I have not yet established what or who the authors are.

Part II – D is a unique section of the Torah.

D is a certain section of the Torah that is localized primarily in Deut 1:4 – 32:47 though it does contain other verses and not all of that section is D. In this section, I will establish that this section is more unified than the rest of the Torah, but I will refrain from commenting on if that unity is a result of it being written by a common author.

The section called D has many characteristics that unite it. It contains a unified purpose, nomenclature, view of the law, view of history, ideology, theology, sociology, political science and more. In short, there are many phenomenon that appear again and again in D but do not appear elsewhere in the Torah, or appear with less frequency. Moreover, there are phenomenon absent in D that are common in the rest of the Torah. I can not go through all of them in this post, but let us take two examples.

1. The word Anoki. The Torah switches off usage between Ani and Anoki, using Ani 182 times and Anoki 141 times. Yet, in D, Anoki is used 53 times and Ani is used twice.

2. The Circular Inclusio. This sentence structure appears once in D and at least 121 times outside of D ( I am aware of 121 times, but I can’t be sure if there are more since there’s no way to check for this in Bar Ilan. .

How convincing is that? Unfortunately, our minds are puny enough that we can not accurately intuit just how unlikely that is to happen. First, let’s assume we already take the division of D as a separate source as a given, what would be the probability of Anoki being used 53 times? The probability of any one occurrence being an Anoki is 44%. The probability of having 53 or more Anoki’s is 55*54* (.44)^53*(.56)^2/2 + 55*(.44)^54*(.56) + (.44)^55 which is equal to 6 times 10 to the negative 17th. Since we would be equally surprised at a consistent use of Ani, we should really double that, so it’s 2 x 10^-16. In any event, that number is very small. It’s 2 out of 10,000,000,000,000,000. It’s 2 out of 10 quadrillion. (That’s 2 out of 10,000 trillion.)

How about for the circular inclusion? If the entire Bible has one author, each CI was the same, each CI would have a 20% chance of appearing in D. The chance that only one or less would appear in D is .8^122 + 122*.8^121*.2. That’s 4 x 10 to the negative eleventh. Again, we should double it, yielding 8 out of 100,000,000,000. that’s 8 out of 100 billion.

But, what is even more remarkable is what happens when we consider the probability of both of these events occurring. The odds of two events, each with a likelihood of one in a billion to occur, is not one in two billion, not one in a trillion, not one in quadrillion, but one in a quintillion because you need to multiply the two numbers. The odds that both of the two events described above would occur is 2 out of 10 to the negative 26. That is equal to 2 out of one hundred septillion, or 2 out of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

What is even more remarkable is that I only have given two examples so far. In S. R. Driver’s Introduction to the Pentateuch, he has around 120 words that are not common to all authors. In JE Carpenter’s book he has over 500. Of course, most of them are not as good as the examples I have presented, but it is quite clear that the case is convincing. And, there are also the unified purpose, view of the law, view of history, ideology, theology, sociology, political science and more. I’ve just touched the tip of nomenclature. Anyone interested in more examples should peruse my blog archives or stay tuned for future blog posts.

Now, the skeptics will say that that is circular reasoning. I’ve just taken every CI and assigned it to someone besides D. But, is that so? There are essentially two components to the circular reasoning arguemnt.

1. There are so many words in the Torah. There’s got to be at least some that are going to do unexpected things.

2. I’ve specifically assigned the chapters in order to make the theory work.

First, to point 1. How many words are there in the Chumash? I don’t actually know, but here’s a rough estimate 189 chapters x 25 verses per chapter, x 20 words per verse. That’s 94,500. However, we don’t want to know how many words there are, but how many unique words. Obviously, many of those are repeats. Moreover, some words, like those appearing only once would not be suitable for the DH. Let’s assume the avg word appears 200 times (because some words, like et, appear many more times) then there’d only be 473 words. That seems low. Maybe it’s 1,000 or 2,000. Since CI is actually a sentence structure, I’ve got to throw those in, but there aren’t too many of those. Let’s pick 2,000 as the magic number. That means if I want to choose 2 examples of words, I have 2 million choices. Now, that’s a big number, but it is hardly relevant compared to the hundred septillion we faced before.

Moreover, it should be clear in that in reality, the correct number to think about is much less than 2 million. While in total there are 2 million sets of words I could have chosen, it should be clear that these sets are not all independent, since each set shares at least one word with 4,000 other sets. Thus, once one set is found to be lacking, it immediately implies that another 4,000 sets will be lacking. I don't have even have the choice to consider all 2,000,000 choices. But, even if I did, we would not be close to our number of one hundred septillion

The next question is, but didn’t I just assign the verses to D in order to make my theory work? That’s harder to answer. But, let’s look at it. The first issue is that I chose Deut, I could have just as easily chosen Gen, Exodus etc. True, but I only had 5 choices and by choosing one of them I wound up with a phenomenon whose probability was on in a hundred septillion. Another argument might be that there are some chapters that don’t follow the Deut = D rule. This is harder to quantify because there is disagreement amongst scholars. But, here is the view I generally use when tabulating tables for D. Ex 20:1-13 is D Deut 1:3, 14:3-20, 32:48-52, 34:1a, 5b, 7-9 is P. Deut 27:5-7a, 31:14-15, 31:23, 34:1b-5a, 6, 10 is JE. Deut 33 is a separate source. Deut 32:1-43 was incorporated by D from a seperat source. Otherwise, the rule generally holds, with a few verses here and there that are exceptions. Now, we have the following exceptions to the rule
1. Ex 20 is an exception
2. Deut 14 is an exception
3. Deut 32:1-34:10 is an exception
4. We have several verses here and there that are exceptions.

Now, how many other equivalent ways could I have divided it up? Given that I can tolerate these 4 exceptions, how many other ways could I have divided it up? First, let’s look at #’s 1-3. This is 3 exceptions. I could choose to put them anywhere in the Torah. It’s sort of hard to quantify exactly how many different places I could put them, but, since there are 189 chapters, the number 189 appeals to me. This means I have around 100,000 choices of how to divide up the Torah. Again, a high number, but very little compared to one hundred septillion. What’s more, that number ignores the fact that I did not randomly choose these chapters as exceptions but was forced into doing so. The only reason I choose to assign Ex 20:1-13 to D is because that section of the Torah is repeated verbatim in Deut 5. The only reason I choose to assign Deut 14 to P is because that section is repeated verbatim in Lev 11. Thus, I did not randomly choose the assignments that helped my case. I choose the assignments I was forced to because I could not possibly maintain any specialness of Deut 14 as compared to Lev 11 since they are the same. In reality, I had only 189 choices regarding Deut 32-34. But, even that is just silly. Clearly, you can not argue that assigning Deut 8-9 to P would be no less damaging to the theory than reassigning Deut 32-34. Deut 32-34 are the last three chapters, so they don’t break up the flow. The only thing that remains to be considered is number 4. The total number of verses included here is just 6.5 This is hardly relevant in the scheme of things. And, they are also not random verses. For example, note that Deut 1:3 is towards the beginning.

The point is, that while I do have some freedom of choice, it doesn’t explain the one in a hundred septillion chance of the phenomenon happening by chance. And, I’ve only used 2 words! Imagine if I used all 500 of Carpenter’s. Or, worse, imagined if I considered contradictions, theological orientation, purpose etc.

Of course, I’ve not proved it’s a different author. It could be that these phenomenon result from a different theme. Or, maybe it is a different author and that author is just Moses. Those arguments will be considered in the next post. In that post, we will also begin to consider P.

70 Comments:

Blogger Rabbi Joshua Maroof said...

I need to print this out and digest it over Shabbat...there's a lot of information here!

Some of my objections, it seems to me, still stand. I don't think your statistical analysis is methodologically sound, for example. And many of the indications of multiple authorship you cite have been ably explained by others from a literary standpoint.

Next week I will try to formulate a comprehensive response; meanwhile, thank you for taking the time to address my questions!

1/26/2007 12:06 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Looking foward

1/26/2007 12:09 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

don't think your statistical analysis is methodologically sound, for example.

Entirely possible. I have never seen the statistical component in the literature, so I was forced to calculate on my own. Since I am not a statistician, I was forced to use the rudimentary tactics available to the laymen. It's entirely possible there's a problem with the analysis. If any readers have a strong statistical background, I'd be curious as to your evaluation of my analysis. Also, if any readers are aware of any literature discussing this aspect of the problem, I'd be interested.

1/26/2007 12:34 PM

 
Blogger Uzi Silber said...

bravo!!!as you allude, DH should be a broader term, simply the notion that the torah was written rewritten, edited and re and rereedited by multiple authors over 800 years. trying to tease out where exactly J or P,or JE begins or ends, is exceedingly tough since they were cut and pasted and recut again over such a long period and by so many people.
in an case ive been trying to post a weekly parsha post on my blog doing the portion of the week from a DH perspective, discussing contradictions, digressions anomalies, and tying these into possible propaganda and polemic from monarchic and post monarchic periods. any thoughts? im going to look further into youir blog...maybe youre doing it already!

1/26/2007 1:40 PM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1/26/2007 1:42 PM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

LF, I only had time to review part 1, so far. I think overlooked, are the anachronisms. To me that is like the biggest issues there can be; Doublets and contradictiction can be explained with Shalosh Seudos Torah, but anachronisms? No way.

1/26/2007 1:53 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

lf
interesting stuff.
you should write a book.

re creation of adam, isnt this easily explained as taking the story from another angle?

or as rjbs sys, the two aspects of man, confronting the world and i forget the second.

1/26/2007 1:55 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

NYAPIKORES,

trying to tease out where exactly J or P,or JE begins or ends, is exceedingly tough since they were cut and pasted and recut again over such a long period and by so many people.

Getting it straight to the last line of every verse is hard, but at least with the P/JE/D divide, it is usually pretty easy to figure out who wrote what due to the many linguistic criteria. But, beyond that, things like J vs E, P vs H, D1 vs D2, I agree with you.

in an case ive been trying to post a weekly parsha post on my blog doing the portion of the week from a DH perspective, discussing contradictions, digressions anomalies, and tying these into possible propaganda and polemic from monarchic and post monarchic periods. any thoughts?

Sounds like fun. I'll keep an eye out for it.

maybe youre doing it already!

I try. But, I discovered that since I don't post that frequently doing a parsha vort every week didn't leave me much time for anything else. Now I do the parsha every few weeks when I feel like it.

BHB,

I think overlooked, are the anachronisms.

Not sure what you mean? Do you mean that there are verses that seem like they are post Mosaic? That's true, but it doesn't establish that the book has many authors. It could still be one author who lived after Moshe. That's why I didn't include it here. But, yes, I agree, there is much evidence to that that undermines the traditional view from that area.

Doublets and contradictiction can be explained with Shalosh Seudos Torah,

They can be explained by Shalosh Seudos Torah but not explained well. Take my example in this post of mosierah. You've got 2 p'sukim that don't seem to agree about the direction the Jews took in the desert. And, yes, there's shalosh Seudos Torah that answers that. Rashi says that they retraced their steps. It's possible, but which is the more likely answer? Especially when you consider how many times it contradicts itself.

Anyway, I'm going to wait and see what RJM has to say. He's usually pretty good, for a frum person.

1/26/2007 1:57 PM

 
Blogger Uzi Silber said...

LF, any good insights on BO? also, is there a site on the web that color coats torah by source, ala richard elliot friedman?

1/26/2007 2:04 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

happy,

re creation of adam, isnt this easily explained as taking the story from another angle?

Yes, it's possible. But, the question is, which is more likely. I just don't see it. Maybe I am just too close minded when I read literature. I don't know. When I first posted on Gen 1, there was a little bit of a discussion along the lines you suggest. The thing is, there are also several contradictions between the two stories. Here’s some quotes from my original post on the matter:

a. in our version, the order is plants, animals, man and women. In Gen 2, the order is man, plants, animals, women.
b. In our chapter, man is created with women together, in chapter two, it is separate.


So, if it’s a repetition of the same story, why the changes? If its two different stories, why create man twice? Of course, since a lot of people take this as allegorical, you have the added option of saying it’s two fictional depictions that bring out different ideas. I suppose that’s possible here, but it won’t help you in the rest of the Torah. And, personally, I never bought the whole myth/mushul thing. But, more on that in future posts.

nyapikores,
any good insights on BO?

Last week I did a DH (double header) post that covered both va'areah and bo, but it is not particularly good, and as I noted there, DH is particularly weak in the makot. (the DH joke is from BHB)

is there a site on the web that color coats torah by source

I don't know of any.

1/26/2007 2:11 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

NYAPIKORES,

e-mail me littlefoxling@gmail.com

1/26/2007 2:45 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's possible that my limitations in Hebrew grammar hinder me regarding the more subtle aspects of the DH (e.g., I truly don't feel qualified to comment on Ani vs Anochi), but I haven't yet seen a truly compelling DH argument based on textual analysis. Every argument has been addressed by both classical and modern commentators although they don't always agree on the answer. Regarding the Moserah "contradiction", see for example Rashi vs. Ibn Ezra.

Divying up the Torah based on the names of God (which I noticed you haven't covered, even though it is one of the linchpins of the DH) seems to me one of the weakest assertions of multiple authorship as it based on looking at Torah in a vacuum and with total ignorance as to meaning of these various names. To a Documentarian (?), there is no significance to the use of YHVH vs Elohim, except as a reflection of difference authors at different times. There is simply no understanding of such concepts as the attributes of God as expressed in how "He" is revealed to man (din vs rachamim, Elohim as teva, etc.)

Of course, someone starting from a skeptical point of view can simply say that the rabbis have had 2500 years in which to resolve contradictions and otherwise explain away such problems. Could be.

So what do I find compelling? On one side of the coin is the incredible coherency and logic to the stories of the Torah as presented by people like R. Menachem Liebtag (tanach.org. See www.tanach.org/breishit/breishit/brshts1.htm for example, in which he discusses the two accounts of creation). On the other side of the coin are the portions of the Torah that are obviously mythical in their presentation. The biggest one is the mabul (which to me is much harder to allegorize than maaseh bereshis.) It strains my credulity to believe that an inerrent book written by an omipotent/omniscient being could write such a story and expect that a 21st century human would believe that it was true.

I will continue to read your blog with great interest.

1/28/2007 2:17 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've been following your blog with great interest. I've read the popular literature on the Documentary Hypothesis, and found the reasoning fascinating. All the books I've seen, though, don't address the actual details of the hypothesis. I guess the authors felt they couldn't convey the necessary detail to a general audience. Without those details, though, I can't make a judgement as to the likelihood of the hypothesis.


Your probability calculations are off. I'm no expert, but I did take a statistics course last millenium.

To phrase the problem statistically:

We're trying to calculate the likelihood that Ani vs Anoki is randomly distributed throughout the Pentateuch, given the observation that Ani occurs 182/323 times throughout, but only 2/55 times in Deuteronomy.

This calls for a Chi-Square test, with the null hypothesis being that the occurence of Ani vs. Anoki is randomly distributed thoughout the Pentateuch.

Deuteronomy
Observed Expected
Ani 2 30.99
Anoki 53 24.01
ChiSquare 6.86E-011
ChiDist 0.9999934

We're 99.99934% sure that Ani and Anoki are not randomly distributed in Deuteronomy. In other words, there's less than 1 chance in 150,000 that a random distribution would yield the observed result.

I think assuming a random distribution's the wrong way to go, though. More on this in the next comment.

1/28/2007 4:45 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think it's correct to assume that all the choices of Ani vs. Anoki are independent. In an earlier message you said that much of the Pentateuch is divided into relatively long sections originating with JE, P or D. If use of Anoki characterizes a D section, then I'd expect every occurrence of the concept "I" in that D section to use Anoki. So, once Anoki appears in a D section, the rest of the Anokis in that section are not independent choices.

So, perhaps we should be testing the distribution of Ani sections, Anoki sections and mixed sections in the various books. Since aggregating the result by sections will reduce the number of decision points, the odds against the Ani/Anoki distribution in Deuteronomy occurring by chance should drop somewhat.

1/28/2007 5:01 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course, you've also got to consider the possibility that the choice between Ani and Anoki is not random at all, but is a conscious authorial decision.

For someone holding this view to demonstrate that there's a specific reason for choosing Ani vs. Anoki, he'd have to propose some testable (ideally, computable) guideline for deciding which word's the better fit in any specific instance. "din vs rachamim, Elohim as teva" is awfully vague.

zach> Of course, someone starting from a skeptical point of view can simply say that the rabbis have had 2500 years in which to resolve contradictions and otherwise explain away such problems. Could be.

The test, I think, is Occam's razor. Are the Rabbis' resolutions simpler than the rules required to separate the text into sources associated with different authors with differing but internally consistent viewpoints?

1/28/2007 5:18 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Zach,

Divying up the Torah based on the names of God (which I noticed you haven't covered

I have in another post.

http://littlefoxling.blogspot.com/2006/11/divine-names.html

As I noted, it was not possible for me to cover all elements in this post.

There is simply no understanding of such concepts as the attributes of God as expressed in how "He" is revealed to man (din vs rachamim, Elohim as teva, etc.)

Yes, but din vs. rachamim is not born out in the verses. It is simply false that the verses where din are present are those which use Elokim.

Anon,

Your probability calculations are off. I'm no expert, but I did take a statistics course last millenium.

Could be. As I said, I am no expert in this area.

This calls for a Chi-Square test, with the null hypothesis being that the occurrence of Ani vs. Anoki is randomly distributed throughout the Pentateuch.

Are you sure? I was under the impression that the Chi-Square test is inappropriate for small frequencies. Since Ani is only used twice in D, it seems Chi-Square is inappropriate.

My method which is a simple calculation of probabilities seems to me to be an accurate calculation. In cases of large frequencies, those calculations are too cumbersome and so the Chi-Square is used as an approximation, but it would seem to me my method is more valid here.

Again, it’s entirely possible this is a gross statistical error. I do not have a strong background in this area.

Of course, you've also got to consider the possibility that the choice between Ani and Anoki is not random at all, but is a conscious authorial decision.

This is entirely possible but is a violation of the ground rules. Part II was only trying to show that there is a distinctive color to D. At this point, it should still be possible to argue, as you say, that that color is not a result of a different author, but of an intentional change by the author for whatever reason. For example, many Anoki’s are used in the phrase “Asher Anoki Mitzavecha Hayom.” You could argue that that phrase, for whatever reason, always uses Anoki and has a tendency to appear in D. I am not at present denying that. All I wish to establish is that there is a distinctive color to D. In the next post, I will deal with this issue and attempt to establish that it is incorrect.

1/28/2007 9:55 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Oh, and Zach one more thing

It's possible that my limitations in Hebrew grammar hinder me regarding the more subtle aspects of the DH (e.g., I truly don't feel qualified to comment on Ani vs Anochi)

It has nothing to do with grammar. The words have the exact same function. Cassuto tried to argue that they had a different grammatical function, but, to me, it seems he was incorrect. See the first comment on my original post on Ani/Anoki (linked to in this post) where I articulate the problems with Cassuto's view.

1/28/2007 10:39 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Anon,

One more thing

don't think it's correct to assume that all the choices of Ani vs. Anoki are independent. In an earlier message you said that much of the Pentateuch is divided into relatively long sections originating with JE, P or D. If use of Anoki characterizes a D section, then I'd expect every occurrence of the concept "I" in that D section to use Anoki.

Hmm.. In most cases I would definitely agree with you. For example, the word Korban appears 235 times in P and never in any other source. Applying my methodology (which, I understand you don't agree with), the chance of this happening by chance is around 10^-71. Yet, I would never dream of saying anything so ridiculous since it is quite obvious that sections about sacrifice would tend to use the word Korban many times in a row and so they are not independent. The question is, in the case of Ani/Anoki is this so?

In one sense it is definitely true. In the sense that there may be some underlying theme throughout D that forces the author to use Anoki again and again such as my example of “Asher anoki Mitzavecha Hayom.” As I noted, I will address that in the next post. But, if you are saying that the very use of an Anoki itself inspires the next case to be a usage of Anoki, I am not so sure that I agree for the following reasons

1. A priori, I see no reason why that should be true. Just cause you used Anoki the first time, why do you then have to go use Anoki again?

2. In JE, there are cases where they are easily interchanged back and forth. I've never done a complete study so I don't know how frequently they are correlated in JE, but I can say that there is some degree of switching off.

3. Remember, this stretch of D is 30 chapters long. In many cases, there may be a whole chapter between two usages of Anoki. Are we to assume that one usage of Anoki has such far reaching repercussions to force an Anoki so far in the future?

But, it is certainly a possibility worthy of consideration.

1/28/2007 11:04 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I want to be clear that if we consider each choice of Ani vs. Anoki in Deuteronomy to be independent, we agree that the 2:53 ratio is an extremely unlikely event.

I don't think those choices are independent, but that's for a later comment; you probably want to address it in a later post.

To clarify for anyone actually interested in the gritty details, you're computing

b(53; 55, 0.44)

the probability of observing a 53:2 Anoki:Ani ratio given an overall probability for Anoki of 44% in a binomial distribution (binomial since there are two choices, Anoki and Ani).

That expands to

55!/53!*52! * 0.44^53 * 0.56^2

or 5.90329330179722e-17

Certainly, an astronomically tiny number.

It's a little misleading, though, since your argument doesn't hinge on a precise 53:2 ratio. You'd have the same argument if the ratio were 49:6 or 54:1.

The expected result, 24:31 or b(24; 55, 0.44) is only a 2% probability, too.

So, a statistician wouldn't look at the likelihood of the actual result, but rather where that result is along the distribution of possible results. ChiSquare is a procedure that does that, and it clearly indicates that this result is very, very unlikely.

53:2 is way off to the right edge of possible results, though, and perhaps you could make a case that ChiSquare underestimates the probability of results this rare. Based on the tables I've seen, statisticians don't commonly deal with cases less likely than 1 in a thousand.

1/28/2007 8:13 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is a math comment on Chi Square testing.


Anon> This calls for a Chi-Square test, with the null hypothesis being that the occurrence of Ani vs. Anoki is randomly distributed throughout the Pentateuch.

Lf> Are you sure? I was under the impression that the Chi-Square test is inappropriate for small frequencies. Since Ani is only used twice in D, it seems Chi-Square is inappropriate.


I tried to check this out. I didn't see a restriction in the book I consulted before I wrote the original comment. The first few sources on the web that I checked (I should mention that I can't reach Wikipedia at the moment) don't mention it either. An example with small frequencies can be found at Yale statistics.

Here's the one I found that does mention the small frequency issue: Nist Handbook, section 1.3.5.15. Chi-Square Goodness-of-Fit Test.
It says "For the chi-square approximation to be valid, the expected frequency should be at least 5. This test is not valid for small samples, and if some of the counts are less than five, you may need to combine some bins in the tails."

The expected frequency of Ani is greater than 5 (though the observed is only 2). I don't think the binning comment applies since we're looking at a discrete variable -- there are 2 distinct choices, Ani and Anoki. Binning would apply if we were breaking a continuous variable into ranges, or bins.

Along the way, I had a troubling experience.

I looked at a couple of online calculators, and got different answers, and answers different from the one I posted in my original comment. I'm not sure what my spreadsheet (OpenOffice Calc, for the curious) actually calculated.

So, I went back to the original formulas for ChiSquare

sum((Observed - Expected)^2)/ Expected)

Got a ChiSquare value of 62.17, which matches, allowing for rounding, the online calculator found at MathBeans.

62.17 is much higher than the 0.001 significance level for 1 degree of freedom, 10.827.

As I mentioned in the last comment, tables for probabilities less than 0.001 are uncommon. I'm not going to pursue trying to translate the ChiSquare result into an exact probability.

1/28/2007 8:32 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now a more interesting subject: how should the Ani/Anoki choice be understood?

I suggested that the choice wasn't independent, prompting these comments:

Lf> there may be some underlying theme throughout D that forces the author to use Anoki again and again such as my example of “Asher anoki Mitzavecha Hayom.” As I noted, I will address that in the next post.

Good example. This could be a stock phrase into which anoki is, in effect, bolted. If we believe this, we should probably drop these occurrences from the computation.

Lf> But, if you are saying that the very use of an Anoki itself inspires the next case to be a usage of Anoki

Lf> Remember, this stretch of D is 30 chapters long. In many cases, there may be a whole chapter between two usages of Anoki. Are we to assume that one usage of Anoki has such far reaching repercussions to force an Anoki so far in the future?


I wasn't clear enough when I discussed sections. What I meant was thematic segments, narrative scenes or a group of related laws. I wasn't thinking that sections would be 30 chapters long.

If you believe that D is characterized by a strong preference for anoki, then if anoki appears multiple times in a short section, then the first use of anoki in the section entails the other uses. I'm inclined to agree with you that a whole chapter separation lessens the influence of one usage on the next.

This is still too vague.

I'm using the phrase "thematic segments" because I want to exclude, for this analysis, teasing apart accounts where the sources are said to be interwoven, like the Noah story. I'm thinking about units that both rabbinic and academic commentators would accept.

Perhaps chiastic structure could be a guideline for segmentation.

This kind of analysis might very well need to be performed at several levels of granularity, using smaller and larger section sizes.

1/28/2007 8:35 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

I want to be clear that if we consider each choice of Ani vs. Anoki in Deuteronomy to be independent, we agree that the 2:53 ratio is an extremely unlikely event.

Yes, but how unlikely it is actually matters here because as I noted in the post, it needs to be weighed against the fact that I had some choice in how to break up the Bible and obviously choose to brake it up in a way to suit my purposes. Moreover, there are many words I could have chosen and I obviously chose the word that suited my purpose. How unlikely a phenomenon is needed will hinge on the level of freedom I had in breaking things up which relate to the issues I discussed in the post.

In any event, it’s irrelevant. I’ve only considered 2 words. And, there are hundreds out there, and factually contradictions, ideological orientation, legal discrepancies. The list goes on. There’s simply no escaping the fact that the difference in color is real.

I don't think those choices are independent, but that's for a later comment; you probably want to address it in a later post.

Yes, will be addressed in the next post.

It's a little misleading, though, since your argument doesn't hinge on a precise 53:2 ratio. You'd have the same argument if the ratio were 49:6 or 54:1.

I believe I have successfully accounted for that. Notice in the formula in the post that I did not merely calculate the probability of having two Ani’s, but I calculated the probability of having 0 Ani’s, 1 Ani, and 2 Ani’s and I added them up. It’s just that doing so actually has no effect on the result since the odds of 2 Ani’s is orders of magnitude greater than having 0 or 1 Ani’s due to the behavior of the binomial in such regions. Further, I multiplied the result by 2 to account for the probability of having many Ani’s which is equally surprising. In the case of your analogy of 24:31 you should sum the probabilities of having 0 Ani’s 1, Ani, 2 Ani’s, 3 Ani’s….. 23 Ani’s, 24 Ani’s, and then multiply by two. The result would probably be greater than .5.

53:2 is way off to the right edge of possible results, though, and perhaps you could make a case that ChiSquare underestimates the probability of results this rare. Based on the tables I've seen, statisticians don't commonly deal with cases less likely than 1 in a thousand.

I’m a little confused actually. The first thing to note is that any method that is not inaccurate, however inelegant, should not yield incorrect results. While I recognize your method is certainly more elegant and “the right way” to do it, if my method is yielding incorrect results, it must be not only inelegant by incorrect. Is it? If so, why? As I stated above, your critique regarding the fact that I only picked one specific occurrence seems misplaced to me since I did actually add the sum of all probabilities for 2 or less.


As to the ChiSquare, they always used to tell us not to use it in cases of small frequency, but I’m not sure why. If I remember correctly, it had something to do with the discreetness of the function becoming a problem, but that would not be relevant here. So, the way I see it, there’s two possibilities here. One is that the ChiSquare is indeed inappropriate here because the problem with the ChiSquare is more fundamental for small numbers, not just a problem of discreetness. Perhaps it behaves poorly in regions that the central limit theorem falls apart or something. I’ve got no idea. The other possibility is that it is indeed relevant here. In that case, there must be an actual error, not just an inelegancy in my calculation. You seem to be more knowledgeable about statistics than I, and since you seem to favor the latter approach, I’ll go along, but I would be interested in hearing where the error is in my analysis.

Anyway, statically minded readers, please speak up. I know you are out there. You are all a bunch of guys working on wall street doing statistics all day. I know it. Either that, or you are programmers. Either way, I know you can help.

1/28/2007 8:49 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Got a ChiSquare value of 62.17, which matches, allowing for rounding, the online calculator found at

I did not bother to check after your initial comment, but now I have checked and I get 61.2 which I guess is close enough. I'm not sure X^2 is even valid in that region. Remember, it's only an approximation. Anyway, I also don't have a table that goes out that far. We should be able to calculate the number ourselves, but I don't actually know what the formula is.

Good example. This could be a stock phrase into which anoki is, in effect, bolted. If we believe this, we should probably drop these occurrences from the computation.

Yes, and there are others, like Ani Hashem being a phrase in P. But, again, I am not addressing that here. I am just trying to establish that D does represent a specific color. In the next post I will try to establish that this color does represent a different author.

1/28/2007 9:26 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

And, when I round, I match you exactly.

1/28/2007 9:31 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon> It's a little misleading, though, since your argument doesn't hinge on a precise 53:2 ratio. You'd have the same argument if the ratio were 49:6 or 54:1.

Lf> I believe I have successfully accounted for that. Notice in the formula in the post that I did not merely calculate the probability of having two Ani’s, but I calculated the probability of having 0 Ani’s, 1 Ani, and 2 Ani’s and I added them up.


Mea culpa. I missed that in your writeup; that would account for the rest of the right tail, which is, as you mention, negligible. OK, I'm glad I went to the trouble of writing out the math, so I could be corrected.

Lf> We should be able to calculate the number ourselves, but I don't actually know what the formula is.

I thought I had the spreadsheet doing that, but that didn't quite work out. I'll stop delving into that particular rathole, since I agree that

Lf> In any event, it’s irrelevant. I’ve only considered 2 words. And, there are hundreds out there, and factually contradictions, ideological orientation, legal discrepancies. The list goes on. There’s simply no escaping the fact that the difference in color is real.

Looking forward to it.

1/28/2007 10:29 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

I missed that in your writeup; that would account for the rest of the right tail, which is, as you mention, negligible.

Can't blame you. Reading pages of technical stuff is - boooring! It just is. We all skip lines. I do it all the time. Unfortunately, truth can not be attained without the boring technical parts.

I thought I had the spreadsheet doing that, but that didn't quite work out. I'll stop delving into that particular rathole, since I agree that

A few posts back about "Yisrael," I ran into a similar problem when my table for the standard normal distribution I was using as an approximation ended. I considered calculating the result myself, but then concluded it really didn't matter a whole lot and wasn't worth the time.

1/28/2007 11:06 PM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

LF, you're absolutely right, as usual. When I mentioned anachronisms, I wasn't making a distinction between post-Mosaic and multiple authorship.

1/29/2007 10:47 PM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

Zach,
>There is simply no understanding of such concepts as the attributes of God as expressed in how "He" is revealed to man (din vs rachamim, Elohim as teva, etc.)

When, at random, I try to use the standard Din vs Rachamim to differentiate, it just as likely to make sense as not. For example take the first two Elohim's in this week's B'shalach. How can you make that fit?

1/29/2007 11:04 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

When, at random, I try to use the standard Din vs Rachamim to differentiate, it just as likely to make sense as not. For example take the first two Elohim's in this week's B'shalach. How can you make that fit?

Exactly.

1/29/2007 11:15 PM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

LF, I'm still working my way through this.

Truthfully, I lost you here -


" Let’s pick 2,000 as the magic number. That means if I want to choose 2 examples of words, I have 2 million choices...."

until Point two.

How do you get from 2000 to 2 Million?

I'll comment again after I read your point 2.

1/30/2007 10:24 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Here’s my point. Let’s say there are 2,000 distinct words. Now, I am analyzing the chances of finding unusual behavior in the words Anoki/CI. But, I could have just as easily analyzed the probability of unusual behavior in the word korban and Yisrael. Thus, I chose the words Anoki/CI because they suited my purposes. How many other words could I have chosen? You might be tempted to say 2,000. But, that’s not true. While there are 2,000 other words, there are much more than 2,000 possible pairs of words. And, I am looking at pairs. How many are there? Each pair has two words, word A and word B. You have 2,000 choices for A and 2,000 choices for B. So, 2,000 x 2,000 = 4 million possibilities. But, every possibility is counted twice. For example, one possibility is word A = korban and word B = Yisrael. But, another possibility is word A = Yisrael and word B = Korban. These are the same. 4 million / 2 = 2 million.

Of course, this is an approximation since I am counting the possibility of A = korban & B = korban and I should not.

The actually answer is 2,000 x 1,999/2 = 1,999,000. 2,000,000 is an approximation.

But, in any event, this estimate is clearly very conservative. There really aren’t 2 million independent possibilities since each possibility shares a word with another 4,000 possibilities.

I just don’t know the right way to quantify it so I used the most conservative estimate possible (in which DH was still firmly supported)

If you have a better way to do it, I’d be very interested to hear.

1/30/2007 10:55 AM

 
Blogger Rabbi Joshua Maroof said...

Anyway, I'm going to wait and see what RJM has to say. He's usually pretty good, for a frum person.

Hmm, I will add this to my little black book of backhanded compliments, I think...:)

I am still working on a response - I was travelling, so I am behind schedule. But I will make good on my promise if you grant me a little more time.

I took several courses in statistics in my Doctoral program and, although the formulas and test criteria are no longer at my fingertips, much of what Anonymous wrote on this thread resonated with me.

For example, every section with Anochi, even if it appears multiple times in that section, would have to be treated as one case, because the instances are not independent. This makes the statistical navigation much more complex than it seems on the surface.

Besides the fact that we are making the a priori assumption that these occurrences are or would be random, which is begging the question to some extent. The presence of any explanatory factor that might account for the overrepresentation of certain words in certain parts of the Torah, or in relation to certain themes, would have to be considered for the statistical results to have weight. Otherwise we can just take the Torah Codes instead!!!

I recall hearing an explanation of Ani/Anochi from R' Yoel Bin Nun. He pointed out the difference in the declarations of Yaaqov and Esav to their father. I have to try to dig up the CD of the shiur...

Zach, throwing out the entire Torah over the Mabul is quite hasty. There is no reason to assume it is a myth. It is most likely a dramatic presentation of a real event. People who seek historical information from the Torah are barking up the wrong tree. Its purpose is to teach you ideas about humanity and society, not to describe exactly how much water fell in a given location at a given time.

1/30/2007 9:27 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Hmm, I will add this to my little black book of backhanded compliments, I think...:)

Take what you can get

I am still working on a response - I was travelling, so I am behind schedule. But I will make good on my promise if you grant me a little more time.

Take your time.

much of what Anonymous wrote on this thread resonated with me.

If you mean regarding the actually calculations, in the end, Anon agreed with my numbers. If you mean issues related to thematic stuff etc. see below

For example, every section with Anochi, even if it appears multiple times in that section, would have to be treated as one case, because the instances are not independent.

I would agree in a case of a word like Korban where you expect it to cluster. I don’t agree here because you do have cases where the Torah in the same section switches off from Ani to Anoki (e.g. – your example of Yaakov & Esav). Moreover, I see no reason why you would expect consistency in a paragraph. Moreover, there still are many many paragraphs.

The presence of any explanatory factor that might account for the overrepresentation of certain words in certain parts of the Torah, or in relation to certain themes, would have to be considered for the statistical results to have weight.

I am not debating this at this point. I even offered what I think is a very plausible thematic interpretation – perhaps the word Anoki is found specifically in the case of the phrase “asher anoki mitavecha hayom” which is common in D. Here is another. Perhaps Ani is common in the phrase “Ani Hashem” which is common in P. I am not denying that now. All I am saying is that the difference between Ani/Anoki is not by chance. It’s a real difference. It could be for any one of hundreds of reasons. In the next post, I will try to establish that the reason is because D is a different author. But, I have not attempted to establish that yet.

I recall hearing an explanation of Ani/Anochi from R' Yoel Bin Nun. He pointed out the difference in the declarations of Yaaqov and Esav to their father. I have to try to dig up the CD of the shiur...

Cassuto talks about that example. Here’s a quote of my synopsis of his vort and my analysis of it in my ani/anoki post:

Cassuto's last rule says that if there is no verb, then the rule is
that if the point is to emphasize the word "I" then "anochi" is used,
else, "ani" is used. This is most of the cases since Hebrew doesn't
have the verb "is" and in Hebrew the present tense is a nominal form.
But, how to apply this rule is entirely subjective. Compare, for
example, Gen 27:32 and Gen 27:19. I pick these bec Cassuto actually
talks about them in the book and claims that in the first the emphasis
is on the "Bincha bechorcha esuv" and in the latter the emphasis is on
the "anochi." Whether you like his p'shat as to why is not the issue.
What is the issue is that it is clear the p'sukim have the same exact
layout and so you could have said the exact opposite about the
emphasis. He says it this way to defend his theory. But, if one is
using this sort of after the fact explaining, one can explain anything
and the explanation is thus meaningless.


Is that what Yoel Bin Nun says too?

Zach, throwing out the entire Torah over the Mabul is quite hasty. There is no reason to assume it is a myth. It is most likely a dramatic presentation of a real event. People who seek historical information from the Torah are barking up the wrong tree. Its purpose is to teach you ideas about humanity and society, not to describe exactly how much water fell in a given location at a given time.

As you know, I disagree, but no sense in rehashing old arguments.

1/30/2007 9:44 PM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

This entire discussion, both sides, is based on the assumption that one or more human beings wrote the Torah. The question you are arguing about is how many people wrote it - was it one author or many?

Alternatively, if one postulates that God wrote the Torah, then one doesn't even ask these questions. One looks at a contradiction and asks, "why did God put that contradiction there? What is that coming to teach me?" (after all, at the risk of insulting your intelligence, "Torah" means instructions. It was never, Jewishly-speaking, understood to be historia in the spirit of Horodotus .) (most readers surely know this but there maybe some who do not)

The rabbinic texts of old and new show that the rabbis well aware of these apparent contradictions, anachronisms, etc. Why weren't they bothered? Because they had reason to believe in the supernatural origin of the Torah.

No modern book on the DH that I have seen ever asks, let alone addresses, this question: what is the evidence that God wrote the Torah? The only hints at this discussion that I've seen are off-hand comments like, "it seems unlikely for God to have written it that way" which is a nonsense argument. (I found such arguments made in the comments to your Dec posts). What you and I think likely for God to do is hardly a valid starting point. The essence of Iyov's theology (according to Rambam) is God's utter inscrutability; therefore our judgment of what makes sense or seems fair for God to do or say cannot be relevant evidence in this debate.

Alternatively, since you're into stats, I would like to offer you the following challenge, which may be much more fruitful and move this discussion forward to a new realm:

Take it as a given that if you choose to go down this intellectually risky path (risky because you may arrive at a conclusion not to your liking, if you are open minded), what is the statistical standard of success? (I think it is important to state this idea of intellectual risk, otherwise most people will NOT approach this question with a truly open investigative mind. Those who adhere to either belief (that God wrote the Torah or that humans wrote the Torah) find it very difficult even to entertain the possibility that they are in error, because the personal ramifications are too severe. In other words, it is impossible to address this question without a great deal of partiality.

Moreover, even if you succeed at investigating this question with pure reason, you are not going to reach 100% certainty, "beyond a a shadow of a doubt"-level of evidence that God wrote the Torah. But would you accept 90%? 95%? I think you should state your target level of evidence BEFORE beginning the investigation. It must be something "beyond a reasonable doubt" but it will not ever be beyond all doubt, until someone invents a time machine.

Therefore, one should look at other beliefs that one accepts as reasonable, such as (I'm picking these totally at random),

- that the earth revolves around the sun
- that the earth is round
- that George Washington existed
- that ___ exists (something or some place that you have not personally experienced

These are all examples of beliefs. There are probably better examples. The exercise requires
1. Determine with what percent level of certainty you believe those things to be true.
2. analyze a spectrum of such beliefs that you have accepted in order to determine what factors are relevant in your accepting them.

Then, the penultimate step is to examine all the evidence for the Divine origin of Torah and determine if any of those criteria for the accepted beliefs are present in the Torah evidence, and finally to assign a certainty index to this belief.

1/31/2007 1:42 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Seinfeld,

I like your name and welcome to LF.

This entire discussion, both sides, is based on the assumption that one or more human beings wrote the Torah.

No it patently is not. I am trying to establish that the Torah was written by more than one entity. Those entities could be human, divine, chimpanzees, aliens. It doesn’t matter. I’m just saying it’s more than one entity.

Alternatively, if one postulates that God wrote the Torah, then one doesn't even ask these questions. One looks at a contradiction and asks, "why did God put that contradiction there?

Yes. If I take as a premise that book is definitely entirely written by God, irrespective of how much evidence is against that view point than no quantity of evidence will sway me. However, I choose to be unbiased in my analysis. I choose to consider whether the answers to the contradictions are plausible. And, the most defiantly are not. They are pathetic apologetics.

It was never, Jewishly-speaking, understood to be historia in the spirit of Horodotus

It really doesn’t matter what the point of the book is.

Because they had reason to believe in the supernatural origin of the Torah.

Such as?

No modern book on the DH that I have seen ever asks, let alone addresses, this question: what is the evidence that God wrote the Torah?

Cause there is none

The only hints at this discussion that I've seen are off-hand comments like, "it seems unlikely for God to have written it that way" which is a nonsense argument.

Yes! Because it is in fact unlikely! And, besides it’s not just because it’s unlikely. There’s evidence that proves it.

What you and I think likely for God to do is hardly a valid starting point. The essence of Iyov's theology (according to Rambam) is God's utter inscrutability; therefore our judgment of what makes sense or seems fair for God to do or say cannot be relevant evidence in this debate.

You talking about my olam haboh post? So, you are saying that you think it is not unlikely that someone would write a religious master piece dealing with issues of reward and punishment and struggling with issues of theodicy but forget to mention the main point of the book?

Moreover, even if you succeed at investigating this question with pure reason, you are not going to reach 100% certainty, "beyond a a shadow of a doubt"-level of evidence that God wrote the Torah. But would you accept 90%? 95%?

LoL!! Are you joking? 95% chance that God wrote the Torah? OJ would be lucky if it got to .00000001% chance.

1/31/2007 4:15 PM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

What I hear you saying is that you have pre-judged the question, which is another way of saying your mind is closed to the question.

Asking if Moses wrote the Torah or not leads to a very different analysis than asking if God wrote the Torah or not. You can reasonably critique the content of a human-generated text because you are a human; however, you cannot reasonably critique the content of a Divine-generated text because you are not divine. Therefore if you are serious about approaching the Torah as an open-minded intellectual, you must first seek and evaluate all the evidence that the Torah is Divine. Only once you've done that and concluded that the evidence does not support the claim of Divinity can you reasonably ask, OK, so which person or persons wrote it? As I mentioned in my previous comment, the first step is the hardest - regardless of your religious or secular bias - because the ramifications are potentially so profound.

1/31/2007 6:49 PM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

Yes! Because it is in fact unlikely! And, besides it’s not just because it’s unlikely. There’s evidence that proves it.

Evidence that proves that it's unlikely for God to have written the Torah? Impossible, unless you assume that God or God's motives are knowable to us. But why would you assume that?

1/31/2007 6:51 PM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

I like your name and welcome to LF.

Thank you!

1/31/2007 6:53 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

What I hear you saying is that you have pre-judged the question, which is another way of saying your mind is closed to the question.

I try to keep as an open mind as possible. You are right that we all have arterial motives and biases. It’s not possible to overcome them. We do are best. That’s all we can do.

You can reasonably critique the content of a human-generated text because you are a human; however, you cannot reasonably critique the content of a Divine-generated text because you are not divine.

I don’t follow you here. Scientology believes that the evil lord Xenu was the aliean dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of aliens to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to wreak chaos and havoc today. [from wikipedia]

Now. I happen to think that’s ridiculous. Are you saying though, that it would not be possible for me to say I think that’s ridiculous because according to scientology it would be possible for me to understand Xenu so my lack of ability to understand it is not relevant. Of course not! That would be preposterous. The point is that if I am taking as a premise that Xenu exists, I can not hope to understand him. But, if I am trying to decide if he exists, I have no possibility but to base myself off of my interpretation of the evidence. You yourself say I should you must first seek and evaluate all the evidence that the Torah is Divine That is exactly what I am doing. The fact that the book contradicts itself about Moseirah is evidence that it is not all divine. Of course, there might be other evidence that needs to be considered. But, to say I shouldn’t consider this evidence is just silly. Essentially, you are saying that all evidence counter to OJ is inadmissible cause OJ could always answer with a redicoulus apologetic that can’t be disproven. That’s just silly because:

1. It just is. Why shouldn’t evidence against be admissible.

2. If that’s your premise you’d have to belive in all relegions since each one could make up the same argument about you can’t understand God.

3. You’d have to believe in the infinite set of possible beliefs, like the flying spegethin monster, the tea pot orbiting the sun etc. that have divine powers.

As I mentioned in my previous comment, the first step is the hardest - regardless of your religious or secular bias - because the ramifications are potentially so profound.

I agree. Everyone in the world is biased. You can only try your best. However, given that 99.9% of the world follows their religion of birth, those advocating their religion of birth must be doubly more careful.

Evidence that proves that it's unlikely for God to have written the Torah? Impossible, unless you assume that God or God's motives are knowable to us. But why would you assume that?

Not at all. Two contradictory verses can not have been written by the same entity. Thus, if the Torah is divine there are more than one god. But, the Torah repeatedly says there are only 1 (at least D does). Thus, it can’t be both divine and true. Likewise, since I will demonstrate in the next post that different sections have different authors, the same follows.

1/31/2007 7:41 PM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

Now. I happen to think that’s ridiculous. Are you saying though, that it would not be possible for me to say I think that’s ridiculous because according to scientology it would be possible for me to understand Xenu so my lack of ability to understand it is not relevant. Of course not! That would be preposterous. The point is that if I am taking as a premise that Xenu exists, I can not hope to understand him. But, if I am trying to decide if he exists, I have no possibility but to base myself off of my interpretation of the evidence. You yourself say I should you must first seek and evaluate all the evidence that the Torah is Divine That is exactly what I am doing.

This is not a sound analogy. To make it a correct analogy, it should read like this:

“Scientologists claim that Xenu did all these things. I’m skeptical that all these things happened, or even that Xenu existed. Therefore, I challenge scientologists to bring compelling evidence to support their belief.

On the one hand, if they fail to do so, then I will assume that the Book of Xeno is a human forgery and I will proceed to analyze the evidence to see if I can figure out who actually wrote it. In this latter investigation, the existence of contradictory and asynchronous statements will be considered as evidence for the history of the construction of this text.

On the other hand, if they succeed at doing so, then I will look at sections of the Book of Xeno that seem to me contradictory and ask the scholars of Xeno why Xeno wrote it that way. ”


Therefore:

The fact that the book contradicts itself about Moseirah is evidence that it is not all divine.

Not at all. Two contradictory verses can not have been written by the same entity. Thus, if the Torah is divine there are more than one god. But, the Torah repeatedly says there are only 1 (at least D does). Thus, it can’t be both divine and true. Likewise, since I will demonstrate in the next post that different sections have different authors, the same follows.

Why can’t two contradictory verses have been written by the same entity? I believe this assumption is at the heart of your error.

Unless you can give me a compelling reason, I have no problem with internal contradictions being written by the same entity, especially if that entity were omniscient and completely transcendent of time. They don’t prove anything in this debate, only in the latter debate (if and when Divine authorship is rejected) of which human(s) wrote the text.


I agree. Everyone in the world is biased. You can only try your best. However, given that 99.9% of the world follows their religion of birth, those advocating their religion of birth must be doubly more careful.

I would correct that and say that “those advocating their current religious practice must be doubly more careful”. The natural corollary is really the pertinent point: those who are confronted with a theory that contradicts their current bias must be doubly careful to consider it with an open mind. Your previous comments sounded like you weren’t open-minded about this question. I hope I heard you wrong.

2/01/2007 12:29 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Re: bias:


I would correct that and say that “those advocating their current religious practice must be doubly more careful”.

I agree with the bias you describe, however:

1. I do not believe it is a correction. I believe both are biases. Yours is correct, but so is mine. You can’t deny the tremendous bias towards religion of birth. It’s pretty evident.

2. While your bias is an accurate one, it clearly does not apply to me. And, for two reasons:

a. I am fully 100% orthodox, up unto the lace of the shoe, yet I am advocating a belief against my practice. You may dispute this. You may say that even though I am 100% orthodox, my skepticism does impact my practice to some degree. And, it does. For example, I talk during shul. However:

b. Let’s say I make religious argument A that supports religious practice B which I do practice. Now, it could be that I am only arguing A to justify B, but it could also be that I only practice B because of argument A. In the former case I am biased and in the latter case I am not. But, how can you ever be sure which it is? The answer is that it all has to do with time. If I first became aware of argument A, and then chose to practice B, it is clear that A caused B. If, however the reverse is true. If I first chose to practice B and then argued A, it would be possible I am biased. In my case, the order was A then B. In other words, I used to be a maamin beemunah shelimah. Then, I thought about things and concluded that TMS is silly. Then, and only then, can you even claim my practices changed. So, if you come to me with a new argument I didn’t know when I first thought about things, I would be forced to admit to bias. But, since every single argument I’ve heard to support TMS I had already heard before I decided to become a skeptic, my decision to reject them could not possibly be based on bias.

c. I just happen to be an incredibly intellectually honest person.

Re: God wrote the torah:

1. Even if you assume God is unknowable, it’s clear the Torah was written for people who we can very much understand. The Talmud even says dibrah torah kilashon b’nei adam. And, if you read the book it’s pretty clear that’s the case. I can say conclusively that saying “chavos yair ad hayom hazeh” would have made no sense to those people.

2. You did not understand my analogy. Let me try another. Let’s assume for this analogy that Revuen thinks the Kuzari proof is compelling. Let’s further assume that his understanding of Gen 1 is literally that creation took 6 days. So, he has a steriah between KP that says creation took 6 days and the dinosaur bones. What should he do? I would argue that however compelling KP is, dinosaur bones is more compelling, so out goes religion. Others would argue that the dinosaur bones were put there by God to test us. Now, the reason those people are wrong is because it’s incredibly stupid to assume God would do that and very much not in line with everything we observe about God and everything OJ has to tell us about him. So, it’s unlikely that would happen. Now, can you say, oh, but you can’t understand God! That’s just silly. If you said, that you would never be able to disprove God. For anything I ever had to disprove God you could always just say, oh, God did that to test you. You’d be forced to believe in every possible religion. But, the answer is that we don’t assume that. If we have evidence against something, it is not a valid to say, oh, you don’t understand God. It’s just silly.

2/01/2007 10:37 AM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

I do not believe it is a correction. I believe both are biases. Yours is correct, but so is mine. You can’t deny the tremendous bias towards religion of birth. It’s pretty evident.

I had in mind the case of someone who went through a change, a conversion, etc. My point is that it’s not always true. In fact, most people I know who have a secular bias were born into religious families. You sound to me like you have a secular bias, despite your orthodox affiliation. Talking in shul, according to the Mishna Berura, is a huge aveira and the cause of the destruction of many shuls and if I saw someone dressed and in other ways appearing like an Orthodox Jew engaged in habitual lashon hara, cheating in business or any other aveira, I would define that person as an imposter, not really Orthodox. I don’t think our purpose here is to define or debate the definition of Orthodoxy, but given the information that you have revealed, your bias sounds like a secular one, hard as it may be for you to accept. (BTW, IMHO, everyone, no matter how religious, has a potential for “secular bias”, which is another way of describing the yetzer hara).


Then, I thought about things and concluded that TMS is silly. Then, and only then, can you even claim my practices changed. So, if you come to me with a new argument I didn’t know when I first thought about things, I would be forced to admit to bias. But, since every single argument I’ve heard to support TMS I had already heard before I decided to become a skeptic, my decision to reject them could not possibly be based on bias.

Bias means either that you’ve made up your mind about something before you examine it or that you have something to gain or lose in the outcome. In this case, where you are now it sounds like you have a strong bias on both counts: (1) you’ve made up your mind that there is no evidence of TMS that you’ve not heard and examined fully and (2) your commitment to halacha would evidently be affected were the evidence to support TMS.

Even if you assume God is unknowable, it’s clear the Torah was written for people whom we can very much understand. The Talmud even says dibrah torah kilashon b’nei adam. And, if you read the book it’s pretty clear that’s the case. I can say conclusively that saying “chavos yair ad hayom hazeh” would have made no sense to those people.

That’s not pshat in dibrah Torah etc. Dibra Torah means that the phraseology is in the vernacular. It doesn’t mean that there are no verses that would need to be explained to them. Au contraire, the original audience may have had equal trouble understanding all kinds of verses, such as the anthropomorphisms – God’s hand, face, etc. Or the phrase “ruach Elokim merachefet al pnai ha-mayim”. Most midrashim are based on some anomaly in the text and we have more and more evidence that the midrashim are much older than previously accepted (academically).

Now, can you say, oh, but you can’t understand God! That’s just silly. If you said, that you would never be able to disprove God.

Calling an argument silly is an irrational (emotional) and intellectually-empty rhetoric. Silly means (according to my dictionary) “lacking in common sense” or “foolish”. The argument that “you can’t understand God” is demonstrably not foolish. In fact, assuming that you can understand God is arguably foolish. You have a finite mind and you presume to understand an infinite mind? How wise is that assumption?

And therefore, you have made a very good point, that this line of reasoning leads to the conclusion that you can never disprove God. That is correct, you cannot. (Even philosophically, this is demonstrably true: if something exists, then by definition it is impossible to prove that that thing does not exist. If something does not exist, it is impossible to prove that it does exist. You might be able to convince people by manipulating them or bringing flawed or doctored evidence, but that’s not called a philosophical or scientific proof, it’s called illusion.)

In summary: God’s existence or non-existence is a conclusion based on evidence, but not provable according to philosophical standards.

However, I think you are wrong that this conclusion leads to “You’d be forced to believe in every possible religion.” Just because I cannot disprove a religion doesn’t mean that I must believe in it. (EG, I cannot disprove that Christianity is, but I have examined the evidence presented to me and found it unconvincing. I remain totally open-minded – if you could bring me compelling evidence that the Christianity is true, I would become a Christian. What a reasonable person should do is to examine the actual claims of each religion, examine the evidence supporting those claims, and then reach a conclusion. However, due to our natural bias (as we’ve discussed) I think it is imperative to lay out one’s standards of “proof” before beginning the investigation. Did you do so before you investigated the evidence for TMS? If not, then you might consider making a fresh start – if, that is your mind is truly open and you are “incredibly intellectually honest” as you claim.

But, the answer is that we don’t assume that. If we have evidence against something, it is not a valid to say, oh, you don’t understand God. It’s just silly.

My point, which you have not yet addressed, is that on this blog you have not addressed any of the evidence of TMS. You are confident that TMS is a false premise, but none of your arguments address that. All of the DH arguments are predicated on the assumption that there was not TMS; none of them can be used as evidence against TMS.

To show you why this is so, go ahead and do a thought experiment. Just pretend for a minute that you believe in TMS. I point out to you that there is this asynchonism in the text. What is your response? “Oh, I guess I was wrong, God couldn’t have written it.” NO! Someone who believes in TMS is not forced to say that. He would simply reply, “Interesting – I wonder why God wrote it that way? What was He trying to teach us in that asynchronism?”

You see, the two issues really have nothing to do with each other. It is a logical error to use DH to disprove TMS. TMS is not falsifiable via scientific or philosophical reasoning – yes, just like any religion.

However, that is not our question. Our question is: Is TMS – or any religion – provable (beyond a reasonable doubt) via scientific or philosophical reasoning? That question you have not addressed here (due to your bias, evidently, as I defined it above).

2/01/2007 3:39 PM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

>What I hear you saying is that you have pre-judged the question, which is another way of saying your mind is closed to the question.

Looks like I missed all the fun.

I haven't seen the remaining comments yet, but I think it would be more accurate to say that he's already been through the decision making process. If you tried that technique on someone new to skepticism, you may get somewhere. But asking them to recalculate and re-entertain every thought EVERY TIME someone else arrives on the scene, is simply not reasonable.

2/01/2007 4:38 PM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

>Only once you've done that and concluded that the evidence does not support the claim of Divinity can you reasonably ask, OK, so which person or persons wrote it?

Rabbi Seinfeld,

You have it backward. The Torah's claims are so exceptional that the burden is on you to prove divinity.
See http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2007/01/circular-reasoning.html

>As I mentioned in my previous comment, the first step is the hardest - regardless of your religious or secular bias - because the ramifications are potentially so profound.


Here you have it wrong again, for many of us. As a middle aged man, who has spent my whole life as Frum Yid, with a frum family, in a frum circle and still enveloped in Torah and Mitsvos, I'd love looking forward to an Olam Habah. And that is a theme I hear from many skeptics.We have so much vested in the system, reap no benefits from dis-believing, that the Bias should work in favor of belief. Yet it does not.

2/01/2007 4:47 PM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

> For example, I talk during shul.

I don't. Unless my Rav asks me something.

2/01/2007 4:51 PM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

> All of the DH arguments are predicated on the assumption that there was not TMS; none of them can be used as evidence against TMS.


I agree. Higher (Source) Criticism should not affect true believers. It's simply a way of explaining the Torah. I turned skeptical way before I ever heard of multiple authorship. But DH does reinforce skepticism once it manifests itself.

2/01/2007 5:00 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

BHB,

Thanks for stepping in there on the defense.

I agree. Higher (Source) Criticism should not affect true believers. It's simply a way of explaining the Torah. I turned skeptical way before I ever heard of multiple authorship. But DH does reinforce skepticism once it manifests itself.

I don't agree with that. I do feel that some of the other kashyas on OJ are much stronger than DH. It easier to answer up DH than some of the other kashyas. But, I do believe DH is also a valid kashya on OJ. As I am attempting to demonstrate, an objective analysis of the text leads one to the conclusion that it has multiple authors. That being so, it can't be all the work of one the one God. It’s not just a way of explaining the torah. It’s the most likely explanation of the phenomenon present.

2/01/2007 5:18 PM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

You have it backward. The Torah's claims are so exceptional that the burden is on you to prove divinity.

You missed the flow of the argument. I don't disagree with your statement. I was only pointing out what you ultimately agreed with in your final post but that littlefoxling is not accepting, (although I don't understand why, for he has yet to respond to my argument).

Your other point that it would be more accurate to say that he's already been through the decision making process. - is totally fine with me. I searched the entire blog and found nary such a discussion. So I merely pointed out what you concurred - that textual analysis itself does not and cannot prove or disprove TMS.

I have taken pains to establish this point because I've heard many many people say that "well, we know that there were multiple authors of the Torah..." when in fact they never even considered the (unrelated) evidence for TMS. Most people who examine DH do not begin with the TMS hypothesis, because they were not raised Orthodox and TMS seems crazy to them (=bias).

Whether or not littlefoxling really did this investigation according to true intellectual rigor, is not the point. I'll take his word for it if he did. But I hope he'll agree with our argument about the distinction.

littlefoxling?

2/01/2007 8:22 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Your other point that it would be more accurate to say that he's already been through the decision making process. - is totally fine with me. I searched the entire blog and found nary such a discussion. So I merely pointed out what you concurred - that textual analysis itself does not and cannot prove or disprove TMS.

Whether or not littlefoxling really did this investigation according to true intellectual rigor, is not the point. I'll take his word for it if he did. But I hope he'll agree with our argument about the distinction.


Firstly, this blog is not intended to be a complete record of all my thoughts about religion. It is supposed to be about DH. I don’t for a second think DH is the only relevant question regarding faith. It is one of many. It is just the one that interests me and the one I blog about. Just because I haven’t blogged about other facets doesn’t mean I haven’t considered them.

Secondly, in addition to the DH posts, I have also begun a series called “Cons of OJ,” Upon its completion, I will do other series including “pros of OJ,” “Cons of God,” & “Pros of God.”

It may be true that I have not presented all the facts yet, but I am working as fast as I can. There’s much material to go through and I at least pretend to have a life besides blogging.

Thirdly, my biases, or what I have or have not considered are hardly of issue. What is of issue here are the arguments. You began this tread with what I thought was a very intelligent comment. That a divine author might impact the result of the analysis. However, you then launched into a discussion of my biases and closed mindedness. But, honestly, your character assault does not compel me and I sincerely hope that other readers accept or reject my arguments based on their weight, not my authority. I therefore view my bias as irrelevant to the discussion.

I have taken pains to establish this point because I've heard many many people say that "well, we know that there were multiple authors of the Torah..." when in fact they never even considered the (unrelated) evidence for TMS. Most people who examine DH do not begin with the TMS hypothesis, because they were not raised Orthodox and TMS seems crazy to them (=bias).

I agree with one point in that comment but disagree with many others. I do agree that maaminim do have one tool that kofrim don’t – a Divine text has more flexibility. One almost corny example appeared in my most recent post Re: Moses/God division. But, I disagree with you on two points:

1. In this post, I’ve pointed to many things in the Torah which are stupid if they were written by one author. You are saying that my argument is valid against the supposition that one human author wrote the book but not against the supposition that a divine author wrote the book because a divine author would likely write a stupid book . I do not agree with that. But, let’s talk about the evidence. Explain to me, how any of the phenomenon I’ve described in this post are explained by a divine author. Don’t just tell me that they are explained by a divine author. Answer the actually questions. I’m very tired of frum people stating that things can be answered without actually answering them. How does a divine author explain the lineage of Cain? Or, the circular inclusion? Or, moseira? Or Anoki? Or the sale of Yosef? I have given in this blog, example after example. And will continue to do so. All you can say is that divine author magically explains everything. Please, don’t just state that. Explain how that works.

2. The fact that non Jews think TMS is silly is not a bias. It is because TMS actually is silly. See BHB’s latest post on the power of the “tam.” You have it backwards. It’s the Jews with the bias. This is plainly evident. You can through whatever insults at me that you please. But, you can not deny the fact that most OJ’s are very bias. Consider the following:

a. almost everyone follows their religion of birth. Suggesting bias.

b. Many people follow their sect of birth. (yeshiveh misnagdish, chasidesh, charidei, MO, tzyoni, chabad, ger, etc.) that is clear bias.

c. Even if you think TMS is provable, you must admit that many Jews have not even thought about it. Many of my friends tell me that they just accept it upon faith and have never even thought about it. This shows that they are biased

d. If you go to the 2nd to most recent post on BHB, many maaminim there admitted to their bias.

e. Many frum Jews have never even studied other religions. It’s hard to believe that they are not biased if they have never even studied what’s out there.

f. I haven’t spoken to you yet. I don’t know what proofs you think of regarding TMS. Some are good. Some are bad. But, it’s clear that many frum Jews know of only bad proofs. For example, in the 2nd to most post on BHB, we discussed Rav Elachanan Wasserman’s proofs for TMS which are clearly lacking. Thus, even if there are proofs for TMS. He didn’t know them. So his decision was pure bias.

2/01/2007 9:00 PM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

However, you then launched into a discussion of my biases and closed mindedness. But, honestly, your character assault does not compel me and I sincerely hope that other readers accept or reject my arguments based on their weight, not my authority. I therefore view my bias as irrelevant to the discussion.

God forbid! I did not intend to make YOUR bias an issue - I only made I think a reasonable point about the problem of bias in the TMS discussion. You then raised the point of your bias/lack of bias and I responded to that. I did not and do not have any bone to pick, I don't know you and do not practice judging other people, only their arguments. If you re-read my words I think (hope) that you will see that this is where I'm coming from. My apologies for making you feel judged.

Explain to me, how any of the phenomena I’ve described in this post are explained by a divine author.

They aren't. Divine authorship merely makes you ask different questions about these phenomena.

I will give an example, which should address your question of
How does a divine author explain the lineage of Cain? Or, the circular inclusion? Or, moseira? Or Anoki? Or the sale of Yosef?


Lineage of Cain - Your problem is stated as "If these are really two variant stories, how likely is it that two sets of 7 people coincidently have the same names !?"

That's not really a problem. It doesn't require a Divine author. Maybe they had the same names, however unlikely. In the modern world, there are naming trends, many names are more popular than others. However, midrashically those names are representative of the culture of their generation - eg, "M'chuyael" means "God's name is erased" - the names tell us something of the spiritual decline. A modern comparison would be as if someone wrote a book that said, "Kennedy begat Johnson who begat Nixon etc." or "Beat begat Antiauthoritarianism who begat Pacifism who begat Disco..." If so, then I would expect the two lineages to have similar names and in fact what would bother me more is when the names are different. I view the Chumash as much as poetry as history (if not more), which I think is entirely supportable by rabbinic tradition.

Now, having written that, I now see that one hencoop in your blog's comments made essentially the same point, to which you retort, "it requires that you invent a complex theory of the message of the verses which has little other support." But that's not right - we are answering in this experiment from the point of view of Divine authorship; therefore, one is not necessarily "inventing a complex theory;" one may very well be transmitting a received tradition. I make this point not conclusively but merely to illustrate that the passages that you cite as evidence that the Torah is "a stupid book" if written by one author. I have demonstrated that in the lineage of Cain that your assertion is not the only satisfactory conclusion from the evidence and therefore a matter of opinion (informed, of course, from one's starting assumptions).

I could similarly do the same with each and every one of your examples. The rabbis, of course, were not stupid, and they were far more aware than you and I of all these anomalies in the text, and they transmitted (and in some cases probably invented) midrashim to explain them. But these anomalies that you point out are not exceptions, they are part and parcel of every single verse of the Torah - not only in the story, in the word choice etc etc etc.

As for the bias of OJ people and their ignorance of proofs and other views, I agree with you 100%. Similar to what I said above about your bias or lack thereof, it's irrelevant to me what any individual thinks, it's the argument that I'm after.

Turning to some of your other supposedly conclusive kashehs, I see that other correspondents have supplied reasonable solutions that do not violate single (Divine) authorship theory, and in some of the ones I looked at, you concede that your correspondent's answers are possible, even "good". So what are we arguing about here? You have time and time again agreed that the midrashic solution to these problems is plausible... the flaw in your logic is when you argue that "multiple authorship is the more likely" - that line of thinking doesn't apply here because we are presently discussing whether or not Divine authorship can adequately address these textual problems. If it can, then the present argument is concluded - you have failed to refute my main point: that it is a logical error to use DH to disprove TMS.

+ + +

(I don't have time to systematically demonstrate this plausibility in each of your challenges, but because Gen 1 + 2 are so important to DH, I'll mention this one briefly. You bring many challenges. Most can be put under the header of "style" which is not a problem for Divine authorship - it just requires the reader to ask, Why would God change the style here, what's it coming to teach me? Another Q you ask there is "If the same author wrote chapters 1 & 2, why would he repeat the story of creation twice?" That's actually the easiest one to answer - the first version is about creation in general and the second is a retelling to begin in detail with the human story, in parallel to the distinction between Gen 1:1 and the rest of Gen 1 - the first verse summarizes and the rest of the chapter is the details. We see this kind of repetition of a theme time and time again in the Torah (the most obvious example is the entire book of Deuteronomy). Chazal have also pointed out that the book of Genesis itself is like a micro-version of the entire Torah. The retelling of Gen 2 also uses different verbs for the creation of Adam - in Gen 1:27 it's vayivrah - creation of something entirely new and in 2:7 it's vayitzer - creation of something from pre-existing materials. Thus we see that Adam, unlike the other things in creation, has two natures, one that is made out of the materials of creation and one that is entirely new to creation. And because Ch 2 is telling the details of the story of Adam, his (their) creation is mentioned first before the others (which are in the same order as Gen 1). This distinction between the purposes of Gen 1 and 2 also accounts for the different names and "personalities" of God told in each. And so on and so forth.)

2/01/2007 11:32 PM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

"It is the argument itself I wish to probe, though it may turn out that both I who question and you who answer are equally under scrutiny."
-- Plato, Protagoras

2/01/2007 11:37 PM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

(;-)>

2/01/2007 11:37 PM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

God forbid! I did not intend to make YOUR bias an issue - I only made I think a reasonable point about the problem of bias in the TMS discussion. You then raised the point of your bias/lack of bias and I responded to that. I did not and do not have any bone to pick, I don't know you and do not practice judging other people, only their arguments. If you re-read my words I think (hope) that you will see that this is where I'm coming from. My apologies for making you feel judged.

I apologize if I misunderstood. I guess I am a little sensitive since some on the blogosphere are not as sensitive as you.

I will give an example, which should address your question of

Ah! Now we are talking!

That's not really a problem. It doesn't require a Divine author. Maybe they had the same names, however unlikely.

The odds of this are essentially zero.

In the modern world, there are naming trends, many names are more popular than others.

Yes. But, with such precision? For so many generations?

However, midrashically those names are representative of the culture of their generation - eg, "M'chuyael" means "God's name is erased" - the names tell us something of the spiritual decline.

Yes. But, were they or were they not the real names? Divrei Haymim seems to think they were. They are presented as real names. And, there is no evidence anywhere to suggest they are anything but real.

I view the Chumash as much as poetry as history (if not more), which I think is entirely supportable by rabbinic tradition.

All right. I just see that as a forced reading in the text. To which you would say:

But that's not right - we are answering in this experiment from the point of view of Divine authorship; therefore, one is not necessarily "inventing a complex theory;" one may very well be transmitting a received tradition.

I have no problem with transmitting a received tradition. I have a problem with transmitting your tradition in a very awkward way where you make it seem that you are talking about people’s names when you are not. Again, the evidence from divrei hayamin is key.

I have demonstrated that in the lineage of Cain that your assertion is not the only satisfactory conclusion from the evidence and therefore a matter of opinion (informed, of course, from one's starting assumptions).

You have given alternative answer yes. As did Hencoop. But, the simplest interpretation of the verses, whether or not it is Divine is that these are actually names.

I could similarly do the same with each and every one of your examples. The rabbis, of course, were not stupid, and they were far more aware than you and I of all these anomalies in the text, and they transmitted (and in some cases probably invented) midrashim to explain them.

I don’t agree with that. The Rabbis were not aware of the fact that many phrases are limited to certain authors of the DH since they were not aware of that way of dividing up the Torah. Moreover, I don’t believe they were really open to the possibility of composite authorship. But, besides, I can’t base my interpretation off of what smart people said. Firstly, because there are many smart people on the other side too. What about Wellhausen! He was certainly aware of these things and was certainly very smart but he thought DH was right! Now, you may say that he didn’t have the option of a divine author. But, I don’t agree with your viewpoint on that. Secondly, almost all Rabbis were born Jewish. This firmly establishes their bias. Now, as I mentioned before regarding myself: just cause you may think someone is biased does not exempt you from needing to deal with their arguments. However, it does exempt me from needing to yield to their authority.

But these anomalies that you point out are not exceptions, they are part and parcel of every single verse of the Torah - not only in the story, in the word choice etc etc etc.

Yes. And that’s exactly the problem!

Turning to some of your other supposedly conclusive kashehs, I see that other correspondents have supplied reasonable solutions that do not violate single (Divine) authorship theory, and in some of the ones I looked at, you concede that your correspondent's answers are possible, even "good". So what are we arguing about here?

I can’t respond to a question like that. I believe there is evidence to DH. I can respond to a specific issue, like the one you raise about Kain. But, I can’t respond to a general statement that there are answers to the questions that doesn’t say what answers you are referring to.

You have time and time again agreed that the midrashic solution to these problems is plausible... the flaw in your logic is when you argue that "multiple authorship is the more likely" - that line of thinking doesn't apply here because we are presently discussing whether or not Divine authorship can adequately address these textual problems.

Perhaps that is what you are discussing. It is not what I am discussing. I view DH as part of a broader odyssey in studying religion. It’s a small aspect, but the one I choose to blog about. Now, to me, if DH is the more likely interpretation, it is a valid data point against TMS. Yes, there may be other explanations. But, if DH is more likely the it follows that it is more likely that TMS is wrong. Now, if I had irrefutable evidence for TMS, you’d be right. Then it would follow that DH would be a moot point. But, I don’t have irrefutable evidence to TMS. Moreover, I think you are over stating your case. DH is not just more likely. It’s a lot more likely.

and in some of the ones I looked at, you concede that your correspondent's answers are possible, even "good".

Some. Not all. Moreover, though this thread might be a tad nasty, I try to be as nice of a host as possible. Sometimes I call explanations good even when I think they are not just to be polite.

(I don't have time to systematically demonstrate this plausibility in each of your challenges

Don’t feel compelled to. I’ve always thought blogging is a waste of time. By all means. Feel free not to refute them.

(I don't have time to systematically demonstrate this plausibility in each of your challenges

That is only a valid question if there is an answer to why he would do that. You can’t just say there’s an answer that no one in the world knows. I hate it when frum people do that. If there’s no other explanation out there, DH becomes very plausible.

the first version is about creation in general and the second is a retelling to begin in detail with the human story

Yes, but Gen 1 also has creation of man. And, Gen 2 has creation of animals and plants. Moreover, you haven’t explain why the repetition. Moreover, there are many contradictions.

Thus we see that Adam, unlike the other things in creation, has two natures, one that is made out of the materials of creation and one that is entirely new to creation.

Yes. But both Barah and Yitzer are used for other creations as well. See Gen 1:1 1:21 2:3, 2:4, 2:19

And because Ch 2 is telling the details of the story of Adam, his (their) creation is mentioned first before the others (which are in the same order as Gen 1).

Why are the others mentioned at all? And, your answer does not adequately explain the change in order. Just cause Adam is the main point is not a reason to go against the chronological order.

This distinction between the purposes of Gen 1 and 2 also accounts for the different names and "personalities" of God told in each.

How does it do that? Why is Elokim more suited to Vayitzer etc?

2/02/2007 12:10 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

"It is the argument itself I wish to probe, though it may turn out that both I who question and you who answer are equally under scrutiny."
-- Plato, Protagoras


Dude, don’t get all intellectual on me. I’m really a simple dude. Just a baal koreh who thinks about things. I like that. “a baal koreh who thinks about things.” I should make it a tag line. What do you think?

2/02/2007 12:11 AM

 
Blogger Rabbi Seinfeld said...

Yes. But, were they or were they not the real names? Divrei Haymim seems to think they were. They are presented as real names. And, there is no evidence anywhere to suggest they are anything but real.

Re-read my analogies - the names can be both real and representatives. Maybe they are in fact nicknames of real people who represented their cultural-historical period. That's how I understand the Midrash, and it fully accounts for Divrei haYamim.

There probably is an answer as to why God would do that, in every single case, but I won't claim to know that answer in every single case. Maybe if I go learn a little more and stop running on and on in this interesting forum of yours.

2/02/2007 12:27 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Maybe if I go learn a little more and stop running on and on in this interesting forum of yours.

well said. This is a huge waste of time. I am calling it a night.

2/02/2007 12:35 AM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

>I don't agree with that. I do feel that some of the other kashyas on OJ are much stronger than DH. It easier to answer up DH than some of the other kashyas.

LF, thinking about it some more, you're probably right. What DH really is, is another straw. It's not a single straw that induces skepticism. For some it's science, for some it's instinct, and for some it could be DH.

I should reframe what I stated. Just as a single kashia from science won't induce skepticism, neither would DH.

It's a whole big package.

2/02/2007 10:18 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

BHB,

LF, thinking about it some more, you're probably right. What DH really is, is another straw. It's not a single straw that induces skepticism. For some it's science, for some it's instinct, and for some it could be DH.

I should reframe what I stated. Just as a single kashia from science won't induce skepticism, neither would DH.

It's a whole big package.


Exactly. You can't look at one piece of evidene alone. That's exactly why I started my cons of OJ series. So I can orginize all the evidenc and wiegh it against the pro evidence.

But, now that I've thought about it more I agree with you in a sense to. You said

I agree. Higher (Source) Criticism should not affect true believers.

I do feel Dh is compeling. But, you are right only because real believers will never study DH. OJ makes a concerted effort to shield its adherents from all kashyas on OJ. But, some things, like science, are just not shieldable. We live in the world. There's no escaping it. However, our world that we live in is not as interested in DH as I am and most will never even be exposed to it.

RS,

Re-read my analogies - the names can be both real and representatives. Maybe they are in fact nicknames of real people who represented their cultural-historical period.

I understand. I'm just saying they don't sound like nicknames to me.

You might say who begat Pacifism who begat Disco..."

But, would you say that Disco lived for X number of years. Had a kid at age X. And, continue that lineage (in DH) all the way through real people like David. Would you say, Disco begot RS?

2/02/2007 10:27 AM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

>>But these anomalies that you point out are not exceptions, they are part and parcel of every single verse of the Torah - not only in the story, in the word choice etc etc etc.

>Yes. And that’s exactly the problem!


In hindsight this is obvious! But of course it's not. In the past, I never gave these issues any thought at all.


LF, this is just a test for myself. Can you tell me on what basis EX 13: 17-19 is assigned to P?

2/02/2007 10:28 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

LF, this is just a test for myself. Can you tell me on what basis EX 13: 17-19 is assigned to P?

I don't know that that's a valid test. I am saying that there is generaly a lot of reasons. Not every last passuk is going to have a lot.

Personaly, I would have assigned it to E. I've checked Driver & Noth who both agree with me. And, here's why

1. Elokim is used by all sources but is most common in E (especialy after Vuerah) and it is here used 3 times)

2. Genealy, it is P & D that have a distinct language. JE do not really have a very distince language so what is assigned to them is done by process of elimination (and a few indicators). Since this language has no indicators of P or D, it must be J or E.

3. This is not conclusive, but I belive הָעָם is more common in JE than P. I've never counted for הָעָם, but it's just my gut. See my recent posts on Eidah and Yisrael.

4. 13:19 refers back to Gen 50:24-25, so they must be the same author. That is part of the passage Gen 50:15-26 assigned to E on the following grounds:
a. Elokim 4 times
b. אָנֹכִי twice, so it can;t be P.
c. Again, the lack of P words.

On the other hand, the ages there do sound like P.

But, again, the man point is that I would asign that section to E. the language of E is not as distinct as P so you are not going to see the sort of consitant markers you see in P & D. It's the absense of those markers that is signifigant.

I am curious. Why do you say it is P? Is that what REF says? Does he explain why?

2/02/2007 10:45 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Let me make a clarification. In some sense, the age is specificaly not P. First of all it uses, "meah" instead of "meat." Meat is generaly the P form. Secondly, if I am not mistaken, P generaly speaking puts the lower numbers first, so it should say eser u'meat shanah. See for example Ex 6:16 P.

I just mean that the obsession with ages and the fact that people lived very long ages are both very common P themes not so common in the other sources. Though, this verse is parallel to Joshua 24:29 which is also E.

2/02/2007 10:54 AM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

OOPS! I meant "E". E is what REF classifies it as.

I am floored. The fascinating thing, to me, is that all your linguistic reasons fit in with REF theory about E being a Northern Document. Yosef is important to E.

Amazing, isn't it.???????????????????

2/02/2007 11:11 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

I just checked REF and he also says it's E.

2/02/2007 11:14 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

The fascinating thing, to me, is that all your linguistic reasons fit in with REF theory about E being a Northern Document. Yosef is important to E.

Yes. While I am generaly not a huge fan of his North/South thing. In this case it works beautifuly. Note. It's not only Yosef in this case but also Joshua who has the parelel passuk about him.

Amazing, isn't it.???????????????????

You think that's amazing. Wait till we get to P verses when we actualy have solid evidence.

2/02/2007 11:17 AM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

Sometimes I think this is like good Shallosh Suedos Torah. I've heard divrei Torah where many things come together the same way. But what is very different and exciting about this, is that REF lays out a limited number of background rules and with this relatively few set of political facts, all the assignments based upon linguistic rules, laid down by others, everything aligns with them.

It's so amazing, that it's scary.

2/02/2007 11:29 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Oh, and another reason it is assiged to E is that it is parallel to Joshua 24:32 which is E. The related Gen 33:18b-20 is also E.

One thing that I think is interesting about all this is Noth's approach. Noth wasn;t so interesting in proving DH. But, he was interesting in using it to try to guess the way relegion developed. I won't go off into a whole long tangent now. But, the way he saw things, these tales developed as a way to explain holy lands and burial grounds. According to him, in Shechem there was a burial ground, and alter. So, people began to wonder. Why is this city called Shecem? What is this burial ground? What is this alter? And so. Legends developed. They said, there used to be a person named Shechem. And maybe once someone built an alter. And, they inveted a story about the bones. But then, there legends got merged with other legends. So, for example, there was another legend about the Exodus. Then the question became. How did the bones get here if the people came from Egpyt. etc. It's all very fascinating and he has it all worked out quite neatly. I can;t do it all in a comment. But, I should add Noth into my mix of posts I think.

2/02/2007 11:42 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Sometimes I think this is like good Shallosh Suedos Torah.


Good. Yes. Shallos Suedos. No.

It's so amazing, that it's scary.

You already think it's amazing and you are just starting. Wait till you get exposed to the full range of evidence presented by scholars. I would encourage you to read more.

2/02/2007 11:43 AM

 
Blogger littlefoxlings said...

Another thing I like about this is that when you look at these three people, Driver, Noth & REF, whom I checked since I happen to have their works at my disposal at the moment, they span over one and a half centuries: Driver (1846 - ??) Noth (1902 – 1968) REF (still alive today – see JP’s blog), were interested in very different things: Driver (contradictions and linguistics) Noth (development of traditions) REF (political developments and authors as people) but yet they are all in perfect agreement here.

Somehow, the claim of the maaminim that even the secular scholars don’t agree with each other or don’t hold of DH rings hollow.

2/02/2007 12:10 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

REF is not secular.

2/04/2007 3:20 AM

 
Blogger Baal Habos said...

>REF is not secular.

Please elaborate.

2/04/2007 10:00 PM

 

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